The article is saying the petition is targeting steam, but the actual linked petition is addressing credit card companies. The text of the petition doesn’t mention steam or valve. I don’t know what the author of the article thinks is happening here, and they’ve explained it very badly.
As of July 16, Steam’s new guidelines state that game publishers should avoid releasing titles that may violate the terms and conditions of its payment processors. In other words, the storefront is asking creators to not only follow the platform’s rules but also submit to potential oversight from companies like MasterCard, Visa, and PayPal.
and from the petition
MasterCard and Visa have increasingly used their financial control to pressure platforms into censoring legal fictional content
Steam is enforcing MasterCard’s, Visa’s, and PayPal’s policies. From Steam’s Rules and Policies:
What you shouldn’t publish on Steam: … 15. Content that may violate the rules and standards set forth by Steam’s payment processors and related card networks and banks, or internet network providers. In particular, certain kinds of adult only content.
Point number 15 was not there in a Snapshot from February on the wayback machine. If anything, the solution should just be to remove the payment method for those games (which would still hurt the creators substantially).
There is a line that is confusing:
In response to this censorship, some fans have launched a petition on Change.org urging Valve to revert its policies
There may be petitions about reverting Valve’s policy, but it’s not the main petition against Visa and MasterCard (which is the one they linked).
So yeah, being mad at Valve is stupid, people need to be mad st MC and Visa and probably also PayPal.
Being mad at Valve is shooting the messenger.
Fortunately the petition is at least correctly aimed at the payment processors.
But also…
If MC and Visa won’t budge on their positions, well, if Valve then makes an alt payment system for adult only games…
MC and Visa go, oh, hey, you’re violating our guidelines, we no longer support Valve/Steam, now no one can buy any game.
This is a MAD situation, Valve would have to come up with a comprehensive payment processing system for everything, in secret, and then deploy it all at once.
MC and Visa go, oh, hey, you’re violating our guidelines
No, that is not how that would work. People cannot buy games that violate MasterCard’s and Visa’s policies using MasterCard or Visa. If someone buys the game using a different payment method, crypto or a direct bank link, it would not violate MasterCard or Visa’s policies because they had no part of the transaction.
Being mad at Valve is shooting the messenger.
Being mad at Valve is reasonable, because they did not have to ban all games that their payment processors disagree with. They would need to remove the option to pay with those for certain games, and the process of filtering them out and deciding would take a lot of time, money, and labor. It’s easier for valve to just ban it outright, but it is not the right thing to do. Valve is not the reason it started, but there is reason to be mad at Valve as well.
No, that is not how that would work.
It is, actually, allow me to explain:
Visa and MasterCard have policies for who they do business with, ie, merchants and vendors.
The business they do with Valve is the business of processing online payments, Valve is one of their merchant partners.
They can absolutely shut everything down in the name of upholding their own moral / business standards, via deciding to no longer be a business partner with Valve.
If Valve uses an alt payment system for adult games, Visa and MC are still business partners with Valve, Valve is now in violation of their partnership guidelines, ergo, Visa and MC drop Valve.
Visa and MC are concerned with the reputations of the partners they have, in general, not so much with the exact transactions they actually process.
Being mad at Valve is reasonable, because they did not have to ban all games that their payment processors disagree with.
No, its not, and Valve did have to act in this way, see above.
Itch.io and Nutaku just did the same thing after Valve did, you can no longer buy any games that cost money, that have explicit sexual content, so by your logic, its Valve and Itch.io and Nutaku all being unnecessarily censorious, of their own accord, rather than the reality, which is that MC and Visa are strong arming all these digital market places.
EDIT: In itch.io’s case, they even delisted their totally free adult games.
Everybody needs to also stop using Mastercard/Visa/Paypal.
Sure. But they are pretty much the only options in a lot of places. Yes they are shitty companies, but I personally can’t think of a good way to get away from them.
Local/national banks with their bankcards and payment platforms? Buying steam gift cards using cash or by pinning? Even if your bank cards are halfway towards visa or mastercard using it through another party is still better.
Local/national banks with their bankcards and payment platforms
I don’t know what it’s like where you’re from, but here in the UK all banks use Visa, MasterCard or Amex for their bank cards.
Not only that, but even if you manage to find a platform that isn’t directly owned by them, they are payment service networks. They are there along the way to facilitate transactions and manage relationships with merchant services. There is no escaping them.
In Italy we have PagoBancomat, but that’s a debit card, not a credit card.
If you buy online, you can also use PayPal connected directly to a bank account, no credit card necessary (PayPal is also a shitty company, but sometimes there’s no alternative…)
Creditcards just exist so people buy more shit to fund corporate greed anyway.
For businesses they are annoying since it is more work to do the administration, they cost more and there is a greater risk involved.
You can pay using SEPA bank transfer or direct debits or some other options.
That the bank is using VISA/MasterCard etc for their cards is still a better option than using them directly because they barely do anything. Heck European debit cards don’t even work like they do in the US. You HAVE to 2FA them.
Most of the time in Europe our transactions go through things like iDeal, Bancontant, Wero etc
Heck European debit cards don’t even work like they do in the US. You HAVE to 2FA them.
No. But you can,
anti-censorship international credit union owned by members that can conduct transactions internally without having to ask for visa or mastercard’s FUCKING permission when???
I’m saying we should build Dual Power and go around them.
How else are you supposed to buy something on Steam? You just listed every available option.
Did I though? Also giftcards exist
What country are you in? None of those options exist in Canada so I think you’re going to need to reframe your point.
Also I can state that giftcards do not exist where I live as I just went though 4 kids birthdays and check 20 different stores and winded up having to give up on Steam cards and buy prepaid Visas.
EDIT: To clarify, two years ago the cards existed. Last year they were scarce, and in 2025 they are no where to be found.
What are those other options you have anyway? I’ve never seen or heard of any of them.
Well I am in The Netherlands and the top one (iDeal) is a Dutch exclusive, I can understand that you don’t have those in Canada, but there should be other options right? Maybe contact support?
Otherwise, order gift cards online from somewhere or does that also go through Visa/Mastercard? Even then indirectly doing it is still better especially if you support a local business doing it with gift cards.
I can understand that you don’t have those in Canada, but there should be other options right? Maybe contact support?
I think you’re on the verge of understanding the problem. You’re so close. Just trust that the guy you’re replying to isn’t an idiot and you’ll finally understand.
Sure in the Netherlands you have options. But other places aren’t the Netherlands. Different countries have different options, but Visa, MasterCard, and PayPal work pretty much everywhere.
Visa, MasterCard, and PayPal
PayPal doesn’t even work on Amazon.com
I can talk about the Netherlands, or Belgium or the vast majority of the other first world countries with different options to pay online. Even in North American you still have gift cards.
You can also contact support and ask them for different payment options, they aren’t going to accept bank transfers, but they will probably allow you to pay with JCB or some others that aren;t native to the Netherlands. (Heck, JCB is apparently something made for the Japanse market so idk why I can pay with it).
Heck, you can get your payment country changed, and then you can pay with different options. Yes, America (and Canada) have a lack of options for payment providers apparently and also for physical stores, but there is a chance that there are more options, like buying gift cards online even from different countries.
Wero will also be something everybody can use, but it’s like the next thing, we (as in Europeans) have had so many payment providers over the years it isn;t even funny.
And use what instead? Swollen off PayPal is pretty easy because frankly it’s an awful service and businesses are better off not using it anyway so they tend to offer other options.
But MasterCard and visa are the only payment options. Everything requires MasterCard or Visa
Businesses are better of not using Paypal or Creditcards, both of the are a hassle and cost more time to process than a digital pin transaction or an old school bank transfer.
You have to use what is available in your country, a lot of countries have their own payment platform and they are being consolidated into one Wero.
As long as people keep using Mastercard or Visa they will have this power.
Yeah people keep using them because there are no other options. That’s the point that’s why they’re powerful because they have a monopoly.
The thing is the only alternative is to use cash and steam won’t take a bank transfer.
In North America there are no other options it seems, but outside that yes other options exist.
Also gift cards
JCB?
Discover has an alliance with JCB. So that’s just Discover in the USA.
There’s Discover and American Express if you’re in the US. I don’t know the porn policies of those companies but they are the alternatives.
I’m not in the US.
Amex works outside the US. I use it in Europe.
i wish gnu taler was widespread
Something like that will kinda work, but using it will flag your transactions if you use it as a business. That’s the issue with a lot of these things is that we need to have some kind of balance between privacy and authorities being able to do anything against terrorism etc. And yes you can find terrorists based on transactions.
Welllllllll, Taler is actually exactly the wrong suggestion for this usecase, because Taler requires all spends to be redeemed from Vendor to Issuer non-anonymously, which gives the Issuer 100% control and say which vendors are allowed, which is exactly the thing Visa and Mastercard are using to exert control.
If there were competing Taler networks and Steam supported all of them, that might be okay because one of them might happen to not be dicks, but if there’s just one or two then Taler is designed from the ground-up specifically to enable this bad outcome. It’s actually one of their features!
Sorry.
Is there any good reason why shops/Vendors dont really offer any kind of Crypto? Like I genuinely dont get it aren’t you paying way more for using Visa/Mastercard etc. as a shop?
Because crypto isn’t really a currency as much as it is a volatile asset. Businesses require stability to run coherently, and utilizing something like crypto currency which could massively increase or decrease in value following a breaking news report isn’t something that large organizations can really tolerate.
Okay, makes sense. Thanks for your explanation!
Np
Need to petition Visa, MasterCard, PayPal, and American Express. I don’t think trying to get Valve to reverse these recent changes will necessarily be effective, since they are being pressured by the payment processors and they definitely aren’t going to risk not being able to effectively do business at all.
Yeah, nah.
Petition these people:
https://www.collectiveshout.org/partners
Collective Shout is sustained by a small number of Australian partners. These are not big groups, and would quickly pull funding under any sort of pressure.
Collective Shout has a deep history with Christofascism and TERFs, so highlighting those angles is the way to go to get them pariahed. Once CS is out of the picture, we can work on undoing the damage they did.
Petitioning people to do something that is against their entire purpose doesn’t seem like it would be effective.
Not only that, they’ll get louder claiming they’re being oppressed. Ignore them.
Go on about being harassed and doing “high risk work”
This is incredibly shortsighted.
If you get Collective Shout to stop, another group might pick up where they left off.
The problem needs to be fixed, what you’re suggesting is just making the people currently abusing it stop doing so. That’s not a long term solution.
No it’s incredibly idiotic to do otherwise.
You don’t fight a fire while the arsonist is still setting it on fire.
Except they’re not fighting the fire here, they’re taking away the arsonist’s flamethrowser so he can’t continue making the fire. Without that flamethrower, the arsonist can’t do shit.
Fighting the fire would be petitioning Steam, but the target is the payment processors that pressured Steam on request of Collective Shout.
Fighting the fire happens after stopping the person lighting the fire. Focus on the immediate threat, don’t get distracted by the lofty long term.
The petition is directed at Visa and MasterCard. I’m not sure why the article says it’s a petition directed at Steam, because it’s not.
i would expect the multi billionaire owners of the largest gaming platform on PC to have the ability to not fold like paper mache. I can also be mad at payment processors and valve at the same time
Kinda hard to stay at the top if you literally get blacklisted from doing financial transactions. Big as they are, they’re nowhere near the same level as the payment processors.
Under what arguments would we be able to push back on something like this? Most people would agree that these games where distasteful so arguing for them to be put back to not start a slippery slope isn’t that easy it seems.
See, THAT is not the slippery slope. STARTING to ban ANYTHING at all from legal transactions is the slippery slope. What happens when they decide R-rated films are distasteful? Or birth control?
Payment processors should have ABSOLUTELY no role in making ANY decisions about what legal transactions they process. Period.
Mainly that the companies controlling nearly all digital financial transactions across the entire globe should not be the arbiters of what is morally acceptable. If they must exist at all, they should just be handling the transfer of funds regardless of what is being bought and sold*.
*illegal shit would not be protected.
They are parasitic middle men that don’t need to exist in the first place, though.
*illegal shit would not be protected.
They can push for some law that makes certain groups or their depictions illegal. Then it’s their morals becoming a law.
If there’scorruptionlobbying, there’s a way for them to twist “immoral” into “illegal”, which is fucked.I would go further and say they shouldn’t have the ability to block any transaction consumers are making, regardless of legality.
I basically want them classified like utilities (or the Internet), and the money they’re processing should operate like digital networked cash. If I hand you a dollar bill, it doesn’t arbitrarily decide to stop being money if it thinks the transaction might possibly be even tangentially related to crime. That’s how you end up with these corporations becoming so invasive in the first place, with their overbroad policies blocking entire groups/categories from being in the economy.
Don’t think that I’m pro-crime – but only actual crime is crime. A transfer of funds itself is only sometimes a crime. You don’t see the federal reserve trying to foil small-time drug deals in cash, and for good reason – legitimate crimes should be investigated by law enforcement, not “prevented” at the whims of overeager corpos. It’s not the payment processor’s right or responsibility to prevent or they to predict crime, especially once they’ve built such a system as to become indispensable for most of us. If they are allowed to do that they will always do it the easy way – blanket bans with massive collateral damage to non-criminals.
These companies should be disbanded and their systems should be handed over to the public. Hot take, I know, but I’m of the mind that transaction processing (much like air and water) should not be privatized. You may think at this point that I’m a crypto-head, but not really. It seemed promising at one point and may be still, but now it’s perhaps permanently associated with unsavory types. I’ll use it if it fits the purpose, but expecting the general public to use it as money is insanity. Crypto brought us part of the way there, but such a system can’t really flourish in furtherance of the public good in the current environment – even disregarding the bad PR.
It’s not the payment processor’s right or responsibility to prevent or they to predict crime,
Of course not, only PreCogs can predict crime.
Honestly, I am kinda expecting that with the way that America is becoming, something like Monero could become legitimized. There wasn’t much reason for crypto to be a currency, so long as the world order remained orderly and useful to the everyday person.
Should the American Dollar collapse, there would be a howling void that must be filled - it could be Euros, the Yen, Monero, or something else entirely, but the opportunity would be there for currencies to change.
something like Monero could become legitimized.
And yet banks are moving in the opposite direction and forcing it being banned precisely because it’s a threat to their control, unlike Bitcoin.
Most people would agree that these games where distasteful
Regardless, tasteless people have the right to pay for them and play, so… no?
This is about payment processors censoring shit just 'cos they can. They stick to handling money instead of dictating how that money is used.
Petitions like this are meaningless unless they come with a viable solution to the duopoly in payment processing that is Visa and Mastercard.
It doesn’t matter what Valve agrees with, if they want to survive as a business they have to ultimately do what the only 2 companies that handle the payment processing tells them to do.
You’re missing the point. This is not aimed at Valve, but at Visa and MasterCard. They are businesses. They primarily care about profit, not censorship. Especially when that pisses people off. They made the mistake of listening to the vocal minority of Collective Shout, so we have to let them know that. This isn’t the 80’s anymore, gaming is mainstream and there are far, far more gamers than puritanical Quakers that get the vapors at the sight of anything mature or complicated. And worst-case scenario, they are not the only payment processors, just the most convenient ones for customers and businesses. For now…
Are you calling them Quakers as a derogatory slur or are they actually Quakers/Religious Society of Friends people.
A “slur”? No. But I was referring to the overly strict, hair-splitting kind of religious extremism that adheres to the letter of the law, not the spirit/intent.
So yes, you did. Quakers (used to be) quite progressive.
I don’t get either of those contexts.
When I read “Quakers”, I just recalled Quake III Arena and thought, “that doesn’t fit”.
Quakers were some anti authority religious minority (Christian) in Scotland/England. They were notorious for their lack of respect. E.g. used “thy” instead of the formal you. (English changed since then and the informal thy fell out of use)
Quakers were
Are. They’re still around. Still a relatively big minority Christian group in the UK.
Still everyone’s favourite Christian denomination. Cool bunch.
I do still wait for an answer.
It was 3 in the morning here. Relax.
Valve is a big enough company that they could conceivably start their own payment provider to bypass this.
For example they could sell adult games under credits only and take CC or PayPal for credits.
This way you’re not buying adult titles with CC at all. Same way AAA deal with gambling with lootboxes.
Can’t people do this already? Just load up your Steam Wallet, and then use those funds however you want?
Cant use the steam wallet when they delist the game.
Come on, Gabe. You know you wanna.
You do know what happens to Valve Time any time someone tells Gabe to hurry up, right?
Haha, it’s funny, because I tried to make this a joke about HLIII, but I didn’t want to jinx it…d’oh!
Consumers punting the accountability and responsibility of their demise to the next generation of consumers. I hate how feeble and weak willed we are all as a species.
we have been like this lately, but humans are definitely not weak willed or feeble at all.
shit, the right wing nuts are killing themselves over their beliefs rn.
IANAL - Can credit card companies coordinate like this? This seems like price fixing but the other way around. Like one company wouldn’t do this alone cause it would drive customers away so they agree to do it together. Does that coordinated monopolistic behavior have president?
Yeah it seems to fit the description of a cartel… Not that it matters.
We knew in the aughts that this was going to be an issue when the charging companies defunded Wikileaks and Julian Assange¹ and were allowed to do so, defying public accommodations laws.
1. Yes, Assange is a git and a Russian asset (or at least has been before) but he did serve as a whistleblower against evil shit done by Bush and Obama administrations and the general aristocratic corruption at play in US federal politics. As with Chelsea Manning, he embarrassed politicians using their positions of power inappropriately, revealing that the state was not serving the public. Incidentally, ACLU in its early years was funded by USSR to cause trouble against the US state (which it was doing anyway and still does), which makes it historically (and debatably) a Soviet asset. Strange bedfellows and all that.
This is a tale that keeps repeating itself, and is why protections by the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments of the Constitution of the United States have been carved out like a holiday turkey by the US Supreme Court. We found it easy to deny unreasonable search and seizure protections from major crimes suspects, only to find that every black citizen with a gram of cannabis now no longer has those protections.
So it is with monopolies that decide they can be selective with their accommodations.
If we can’t pressure the transaction services to obey public accommodation rules since they have monopolistic power, it may be time to circumvent the issue, and support black market tactics ( Archie comic and bag of sawdust, $20, comes with free incest porn! )
These days, when discussing the usenet alt.* heirarchy, its acronym ( Anarchists, Lunatics, and Terrorists ) is now considered a backronym, a joke. I was there, and it belied a serious point: The worst of us deserve free speech, as per Larry Flynt, knowing that Hustler magazine is legally published in all its (raunchy) glory means that whatever you’re releasing to the public is safe from moral guardians and critics because they have worse stuff to shout at.
But we’re in an era of book burning, which means those would-be moral guardians are emboldened to try to reshape society in their image, in contrast to the principles of liberty and free thought. And soon ICE will expand its POI list to include liberals and wrongthinkers.
It may be time for bricks in windows and direct action against high-ranking company officials, but such behaviors carry high risks of consequences. So be careful and thorough.
In the meantime, write petitions of your grievances and sign those others have written. And remind them at this moment the public presumes petitioning them for redress of grievances will be acknowledged and acted upon. And if that turns out not to be the case, the outraged public will not simply disappear and keep to its place.
So, I wanted to see if I could find a list of games that were removed. I found this https://steam-tracker.com/ which is not specific to this event, but useful to keep track.
We want our pron and we want it now!
What is a gooner that cannot goon? This is murder.
Give me the whole tiddy or give me death
pronpornSelf censorship is not appreciated here mate
I am ashamed, brother. Forgive me for I have sinned.
Make your own payment processor, Gaben. It’s the way.
actually what you want is card network, but even then that won’t do it
i gave a whole big rundown of why this is all way harder than everyone expects here
payments is an absolute minefield with so many layers of BS that gets closer to arcane wizardry and back room deals the deeper you go
Then people would have to get specific cards or crypto or whatever that aren’t Visa/MasterCard in order to buy Steam games. That, of course, is if you can get banks to agree to carry “Steam cards”. Either that, or everyone would need to buy Steam gift cards as an exclusive form of payment.
All of these are much less convenient than keeping your existing debit/credit card to pay for Steam games, and less convenience means less sales.
They would have to roughly make their own form of PayPal, alongside their own bank.
If you didn’t know, PayPal technically isn’t a bank, it and Venmo use Synchrony Bank… which is an actual bank.
If they did something like that, it could work, but it would have to be at a similar scale as PayPal, that is to say, massive…
Because doing this would/could basically be the nuclear option:
MC and Visa and PayPal would/could drop them.
So, they’d have to basically develop a massive project, in total secrecy.
… Which is something Valve has arguably done a number of times, they are notoriously opaque as a company.
…
Sort of as you mention, they already have a barebones backend framework to scale up from the steam gift card / user gift card balance system.
I am… uncertain if their backend for that already does or does not include an actual legally defined bank though.
…
Problem is that this would necessitate a massively costly undertaking, as well as ongoing maintenance costs, and Valve is also notorious for basically running on what most other firms would consider a skeleton crew for the size and scope of what they do.
Steam does not have to only accept steampay. Tho? You fear visa and mastercard will blaclist steam?
Steam removed games because visa and mastercard threatened to blacklist it, so yeah. That’s the whole point.
Is that kinda what PayPal is, or was intended to be?
Yeah but PayPal’s awful. They literally arbitrarily deny you access to your own funds. At least the banks have rules.
If someone wants to pay me something they can use it literally anything other than PayPal. I don’t trust them they’ve stolen money from me before.
they’ve actually paid me after I was scammed by fake stock broker. without fussing about it too. Really easy to get payments reversed.
Either way I’d be happy to also switch to another method of payment if it were an option.
Yeah because in your case they didn’t have your money. They’re only real pain about trying to get money back, they always support businesses never customers.
So if I pay for a product and never receive it PayPal always takes the business’s side.
Even Amazon has better customer support.
But we have to oppose CollectiveShout as well, as in destroy them. They’re way worse than I thought
The major credit cards are essentially infrastructure, and really should not have the right to refuse to serve a lawful business.
Valve please fix
*Develops an open online payment system that isn’t a scam.
I wish it was feasible to hve a large scale boycott of visa and mastercard. american express is already useless so it wouldn’t help much to include it…
Or a decentralized alternative that isn’t just used to scam people, that doesn’t eat up insane amounts of electricity to process, and is as convenient as regular money.
In reality, private corporations should not have control over money at all. Money is printed by the local government and should be controlled by the local government. Governments generally have better free speech protections than private corporations, which have none. Obviously, free speech protections are not universal, but countries can already ban content in other ways.
Money is not printed by the local government at all. Money is created by private banks through extending credit. And it shouldn’t be controlled by the government either, that’s a terrible idea.
I agree with the rest though.
Are you sure you’re from lemmy.ml…?
It’s just the first instance I found when I signed up, I didn’t know anything about its reputation.
Did some quick search and it turns out: There was controversy about revisionism and right-wing talking by the original lemmy.ml admins (and founders). Hence, everyone coming from there with fresh accounts immediately get’s the “idiot label”, is insulted and downvoted. Not a very welcoming gesture in such a supposed open, liberal and new community of geeks. - It seems, we can either change instaces, delete our accounts or ignore it.
Tbh, I never cared about it much, mine isn’t exactly a new account and I haven’t experienced what you describe very often. I mostly use lemmy via the voyager app and here I can’t even see what instance someone is on, unless I search for them specifically (or I’m too much of a noob and don’t know how). So if some people want to base their judgment on that, whatever.
How to use Debit or e-transfer to pay for Steam games?
Hell, you can buy with cash. Walk to a local big box store and buy a steam wallet/gift card. That is assuming you live somewhere that has that option, of course.
Unless I’m mistaken, I thought Debit is usually through visa or MasterCard, for security.
Unless you mean like… A direct line to your bank account. Which is extremely risky.
CC companies have a really easy retort in that they operate in jurisdictions where these things are illegal
And the easy retort to that is that they don’t apply Chinese censorship globally. Only in China. Regional laws only apply regionally.
They have regional pricing already, regional content bans should be easy enough.
The problem here being these payment processors are global and none of this is illegal in the jurisdictions affected. This regional blocking, while nice, shouldn’t even need to be a “solution” to this. It’s a sledgehammer “solution” to something that was never enough of an issue for actual legislation.
Edit: clarify point
Right, my point is that Visa shouldn’t care if an American is buying something that’s illegal in China, if the product is not allowed for sale in China.
